Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

We've set the date. Memorial Day weekend 2009 we are loading up and heading to Wisconsin. I've made a deal with my wife's uncle to buy 5.5 acres of land for $2k/acre. It is pictured below -- above the yellow line and to each side of the picture.

There is a small grain barn on the property (28'x16' two story) that I will be moving onto a permanent foundation and turning into a home for us. I have also attached a picture of the barn (and my faithful lab, Angel).

I have had to reconsider many of the ideal preconceptions I had about building the perfect home. Because we are going to be paying cash for the entire project many great ideas have to go out the window. For instance: a basement ($9,500) and solar power ($7,000 minimum). I figure we can always add the solar power later, but it looks like grid hook up initially just to get us into our own place. Unless...

I'm toying with the idea of using an electric generator initially. How would I go about picking the right one? What is the cheapest fuel? Should I use storage batteries, or just consume electricity in the evenings when we have the lights on?

I appreciate any advice you can share on the best way for us to get into our "home" as quickly as possible.

EDIT: What would you do with those corn cribs? There are two standing plus 3 additional cement bases. There must be something practical...

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Wow!

Wish you well. :yes:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Congratulations! What area of Wisconsin?

About those corncribs - I would use one as a corncrib, and the other could be used to house a few chickens while you are getting things started.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Good luck!!! Trying to get something similar going here in PA.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

You can use the corn cribs for when the kids are bad. "All right, 30 minutes in the crib."

Or you could start a reality tv show on living off the grid called "SLV's Crib"

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

what about internet connection?:biggrin:

does the location your building at have building codes?

i can think of a thousand+ thoughts and considerations, i have family that live totally grid free. (as in zero electricty)

the grid vs genset is a big question...with major $ ramifications...

around here a grid hookup is free within 1/4 mile of road/grid over 1/4 mile is so much a foot

a decent genset setup would need to be some form of slow speed diesel or lpg engine setup, if i were doing what you are contemplateing i would build a seperate remote engine room and set-up a listeroid diesel setup but any longterm decent genset is going to cost $ hook it up to batterys and add solar and wind gens later but any of this is going to be major $



so i would guess you have a lot of thinking to do on the power issue

as far as my rural family that are totaly electricity free (great grandparents)....here are how they accomplish some things

#1 kerosene lamp lighting
#2 potbelly wood stove heating
#3 wood stove cooking (seperate unit)
#4 potty.....path n shack method
#5 water.....cistern with hand pump and filter (pipe in rain water off of roof)(haul water from spring if it is dry)
#6 wash clothes with a gasoline powered washing machine
#7 refrigerator is kerosene powered (most food is stored in celler)

point is you can go as OFF-Grid as you wish (they still buy kerosene,gas,salt,flour,etc)


I have a hunting cabin i run off-grid which is pretty much set-up with travel trailer appliances etc......we run it off of 12v...and haul in a small genset to charge batterys and have a small solar grid on roof to maintain the batterys when we are away...i wired in a couple of 110v circuts for convince when we have the genset running.


the more i think about it....i think if i were doing what your doing i would purchase a used cheap self contained travel trailer to live in while i worked on the house this would give you time to do the construction yourself and you could always sell the trailer unit when you were done. and it would aclimate you to some of these off-grid issues

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

what about internet connection?:biggrin:

does the location your building at have building codes?

i can think of a thousand+ thoughts and considerations, i have family that live totally grid free. (as in zero electricty)

the grid vs genset is a big question...with major $ ramifications...

around here a grid hookup is free within 1/4 mile of road/grid over 1/4 mile is so much a foot

a decent genset setup would need to be some form of slow speed diesel or lpg engine setup, if i were doing what you are contemplateing i would build a seperate remote engine room and set-up a listeroid diesel setup but any longterm decent genset is going to cost $ hook it up to batterys and add solar and wind gens later but any of this is going to be major $

so i would guess you have a lot of thinking to do on the power issue

as far as my rural family that are totaly electricity free (great grandparents)....here are how they accomplish some things

#1 kerosene lamp lighting
#2 potbelly wood stove heating
#3 wood stove cooking (seperate unit)
#4 potty.....path n shack method
#5 water.....cistern with hand pump and filter (pipe in rain water off of roof)(haul water from spring if it is dry)
#6 wash clothes with a gasoline powered washing machine
#7 refrigerator is kerosene powered (most food is stored in celler)

point is you can go as OFF-Grid as you wish


I have a hunting cabin i run off-grid which is pretty much set-up with travel trailer appliances etc......we run it off of 12v...and haul in a small genset to charge batterys and have a small solar grid on roof to maintain the batterys when we are away...i wired in a couple of 110v circuts for convince when we have the genset running.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Before you make the move read Boston T Party's book on privacy. Knowing you, it's already in your library.


Haven't finished this one yet. It's more up to date... Post 911 stuff.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Looking at all those trees, I wonder whether a Stirling or reciprocating steam engine might be worth considering?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

It may be a ways off, but a fuel cell might help: http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/...-news3.5b.html

Also, I would definitely get a wood stove with all those trees around you...maybe some solar since your field is so open. Nice looking place. Now just get a salt lick and tree stand and stock your place with venison! Good luck!

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

This is awesome my friend! My wife and I have been dreaming of homesteading for years. We have had several financial setbacks mostly due to medical expenses for our kids but we think we might be beyond the bulk of it at this point.

We are going to go the cash route ourselves (no other choice). We are looking for for acreage at about $2k to $3k per acre so we are going to fill envelopes with cash or gold coinage for every acre we save. Hopefully in the near term we will save enough cash to buy land in the next 12 months and build slowly from there.

As for power, being that I am considering the very same thing, I would consider using the least amount as possible by using LED lighting, wood heating for water and home (solar water heating if climate permits), and potentially kerosene or LP powered freezer/refrigerator. Solar water pump with an elevated cistern that provides gravity fed water to the home. If you can take care of the major power requirements with the above alternatives is definitely makes off grid much more feasible.

Get a battery bank that you can charge with a generator. Ideally you will only have to run the generator for a few hours a day to charge your batteries that run your appliances and lights. This would significantly reduce wear on the generator and fuel consumption of course. When you can afford it and cash permits add wind/solar power to charge your batteries so you can eventually reduce your dependence on generator power with the exception of high powered tools or long periods of time with no significant wind or sun.

Obviously your Internet needs could be addresses using something like Hughs satellite Internet.

For now, I will live vicariously through your experience!

Good luck,

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Yup get some chicken wire and make a coop out of the corn crib ....first thing I thought of when I saw it.

Diesel generator, china diesels have been good for me or maybe a little kubota or isuzu,......check out this site, I talked to a rep in Canada nice guy and the units look to be very well made, the portables are china copys of yanmar and the bigger ones are very nice complete standbys with transfer switch and all the gauges I am impressed. they weigh about 14000 lbs so that tells me the motor generator are a nice hunk of iron, I would definetly check them out, pick the brain of the sales guy I spoke to mike he was in Canada but they ship from Florida, shipping was $800 to California.

they say they are selling these same units to the military...I dunno, but that's what they say.
I've been using China diesels for years these don't seem as crude, but who knows....www.emergencypower.com


And yes I would charge a few batterys and then use straight 12v or buy an ac inverter.....that way you don't waste power . Read up on running battery chargers with a generator you need to buy a good charger or they are not efficient off a generator.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Great link Nub, thank you!

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Dave if you can ask for Mike and pick his brain. My China diesels have been good to me , yes I have had a couple of minor problems over the years but they are really easy to work on....ask about tech support , is there a mechanic or someone who knows these units inside and out .They've only been selling them for 2 years so none out there in the 10,000 hour range. As I mentioned I like the shipping weight 1,300 lbs ......big heavy units. in the portable mike likes the units without the housings .....easier to service.

Good luck

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I just went of grid and have had a few hassels that i thought i would share
my thoughts on.

get batteries and run your lighting from them use your gennie to charge and run large appliances like washing machine and at the same time it can be charging your batteries.
if you are running a fridge you will want a fairly large battery storage say 800
ah and large continuous charge capability say 60 amps also you may try using a much smaller fridge or a propane fridge if you can find a cheap one.

if you can afford the on demand gas that would be a good way to go i think
as long as it does not require a lot of electricity to run it right now i am using
wood heating into my original electric hot water heater and this is working
very well by the summer i will have my solar hot water set up still with a wood back up.

and i could not imagine going of grid without at least a few solar panels
you wont need to spend 7000 dollars to get some basic stuff

i converted the electric range over to a propane range that i got from
craigslist i realy like this range but to bake it uses a lot of electricity
as well as the propane to run if you get a propane range try to
find one that does not need electricity.

dont know where your water supply is from but mine is from a 300 foot well
and i need to run the gennie to pump from it.so i built a water tank for storage and have a small 12 volt pump pumping from the water tank back into
the house lines and have the pressure cut out switch set to less than
the 240 volt well pump so when gennie and pump are running it is what runs
the house and irrigation but for most houshold chores we just rely on the little 12v pump which will not turn on untill pressure is lower than the
well pump.

oh and i burned out my washing machine trying to run to much at one time
from a little belt driven back up generator the belt slipped voltage dropped
and the washing machine could not properly start just sat there and cooked.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

A few more details:

1. The lot is about 3.5 acres wooded and 2 acres field. I did this on purpose in order to harvest the wood fuel and hunt deer (plenty around -- surrounded by woods).
2. Water is real shallow -- my inlaws live just right of the picture, and he plumbed his well and found water just 6 feet below the basement. I like the idea of a standalone solar well pump w/gravity tank (attic?). On the other hand, it would be neat to fill a gravity tank with a hand pump -- a great work out.
3. We are planning on using a "Wonder Wash" hand washing machine and a good old fashioned clothes line (inside and out).

My wife and I talked this morning about nixing electricity altogether and puting in a propane lantern system / propane refrigerator. I really wanted to avoid using any energy source that had to be purchased, but I'd rather buy fuel than "subscribe" to utilities and give up some personal property liberty by way of contracts.

BTW... I run into a lot of people who say that this is their dream. Stop dreaming and starting working toward it. I've been thinking this way for several years now, and it will be a couple more before my dream is realized. You have to start taking a series of baby steps -- wean yourself off the system, get out of debt, save cash, buy land, etc...

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I fully agree with this statement and will endeavor to do the same.

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Wish you the best in your cross-crountry move <SLV> :beer:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I talked with my FIL tonight, and he said that I would need a frost wall at least 4' deep. He didn't think this would be much cheaper than a basement, and I should "probably do it right the first time". He suggested that I consider laying my own block wall basement. Anyone here ever done that? What are the pros/cons?

Most solar electric systems I've looked at are package deals -- no breakdown of the cost of the individual components. Would a generator be cheaper than solar panels? It looks like I would need about 1,600 watt/hours/day.

BTW... I think .375 should be the first contestant on my "Crib" reality TV show.
:coolbeer: <--- root beer

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

For remote power look at these, Submarine Batteries. http://www.relocationspecialists.org/bat/cell.html

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Fascinating... one 12 volt (6 cell) would be all a guy could need. I could run two months on one charge! I wonder how long it would take to charge it...

(I've got a call into him to find out the price.)

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Saw this thread last night but it was late and I didn't reply. Tonight it is late again and I've got another busy day of deer hunting planned for tomorrow.

Can't get those corn cribs out of my head. I sure could use a small crib here. My corn didn't do as good as I had hoped. I still have some stored that I am feeding some to my chickens each day.

We are connected to the grid, but have back up generators. So far I'm not sure either generator will handle the well pump. Wife wants me to put in solar panels, but I need to give some thought to that. I've seen winters, especially January when the sun hardly shows itself the whole month. That seems to be the norm for a lot of the winter months here. Anyway, all the building projects for this year have been a drain on the funds.

SLV, if you've got deer, better make plans to protect any garden, or fruit trees you plan to add. They have really caused us a lot of damage being the varmints they are. They even did a number on my pine and hemlock trees. Also, the bucks rubbed the bark off the nut trees and ate the buds. Rabbits will eat the bark off your fruit trees if you don't protect them too. You can grow a lot of stuff on a couple acres of ground. As for wood, don't plan on having full time heat or cooking on that small of a wood lot, better find an alternate source and save your's.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Forget submarine battery's, well don't forget them .....but fork lift battery's are the way to go, better pricing and more readily available, and forklift battery's are meant to take a lot of abuse. Home power systems regularly draw down to 50%, that's the kind of abuse forklift battery's are used to.

I have a saying about a move to and living in the country...."Everything costs $10,000.00" :wink:......don't laugh, you'll see! :ok:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Congratulations!!!!:applause_

Looks like you are in for an adventure,a good one.:ok:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Looks like a little slice of heaven. Good luck. Block basement is fine, just be sure to add plenty of rebar and grout well. May as well have a basement. Working on plumbing, electrical, etc. is awfull if you are lying in a crawl space. It'll give you a place to put the pool table too.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Looks like a lot of work to me, converting the barn into a place you'd want to live in. WI is cold in the winter. I'd like to do something similar, but will do it in a more forgiving climate if I do. Where will you live while you convert the barn, and how long and how much do you figure to do it?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Consider a rubble trench foundation- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubble_trench_foundation

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I figure I can save about $7,000 on a framing / truss package, as well as siding and roofing (yes, I plan on patching up the existing corrugated steel -- I like the patina!) by moving the barn instead of building. The cost of moving the barn is $2,000 (my wife's uncle is in the house moving business). My original house plan was only 200 square feet bigger, so I won't be giving up much functionality.

In order to insulate it well I will be blocking out the exterior 2x4 framing with 2x2s to give me a 6 inch wall cavity. I am planning on using the spray in insulation so that all of the gaps/cracks in the outside wall will be filled. I am also planning to have cathedral ceilings in the upstairs bedrooms as well as two skylights on the southern roof plane. That will be the primary place of heat loss. In order to promote good convection from the wood stove I will be creating a 6"x6" "step" around all exterior walls that is open in the front and underneath for cold air return. Rather than a central heating fan I am planning on using a bathroom exhaust fan in each room connected to a convection chamber above the stove. Each of these fans will have an idependent room thermostat (3 in all -- each bedroom and the bathroom).

I will sand the existing plank floor and seal it. The following is my list of aspects I expect to spend money on. I'm hoping to complete it for less than $25k (not including the land).

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 611pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=814 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 93pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4534" width=124><COL style="WIDTH: 518pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 25234" width=690><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 93pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=124 height=17>Well</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 518pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=690>Drilling, plumbing, electric pump, pressure tank, outside hand pump</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Septic</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Excavation</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Dig foundation, drainage plan excavation, back fill foundation</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Foundation</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">7' walls, @ 28' x 16', 1 egress window wells + short window in cellar, firewood trap door</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Relocation</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">2 day job - $2,000</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Framing</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">2 stairways, basement and first floor support beams, reinforce roof trusses, interior 2x4 walls, exterior 2x2 build out</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Windows</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">windows (1-48x48 side slider, 4-30" louvered, 1-60" triple louvered, 3-24" square louvered) and skylights (2 - 20"x36")</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Doors</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">3 exterior steel doors (36"), 5 interior 30" doors</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Wiring</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">External conduit, breaker box (all 20 amp circuits), wire, switch/outlet/lighting boxes, thermostat/fan wiring</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Electric Connect</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Riverland Electric Company construction pole + final hook up (free)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Electrical Fixtures</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">light fixtures, full spectrum CFL bulbs, heating fans, thermostats, switches</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Plumbing</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Copper piping, whole house water filter</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Water Heater</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">High efficiency electric 40 gallon</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Plumbing Fixtures</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str='Tub, bathroom sink, toilet, kitchen sink, "WonderWash", '>Tub, bathroom sink, toilet, kitchen sink, </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Insulation</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Living room floor bats, basement wall bats (interior and exterior walls), ceiling and wall spray-in</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Flooring</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Basement carpet/pad, wood stove tile, bathroom vinyl</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Window Treatments</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Window blinds/curtains, insulated skylight shutters</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Wood stove</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Kitchen Queen (smaller) - $3,200</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Chimney</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Please let me know if anyone sees items I need to add to my aspect list. I'm trying to figure out just everything I will need to get the job done.

Oh yeah... just saw that I left out drywall/interior lap board as well as screws/nails.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I have been reading a lot at www.countryplans.com (check out their forum). Guys there are building their own homes for around $25k (no basement).

I'll check into the forklift battery scenario. Thanks for the tip!

The wife wants a place in the basement to workout, send the kids when she's making dinner, and hang out in the middle of a sweltering summer. We will actually divide the basement at the stairway with the smaller portion becoming a cellar with an insulated exterior door. Her folks have a chute into their basement for unloading firewood. I'll probably do the something similar in this seperate room.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Is this kind of thing worth more than a thought as you may be strapped for electricity? I know sfa about it; Google found it for me.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Thanks! I have not previously found any functional production stirling engines other than cute little working models for science classes. I might be able to get it to run off the stove pipe on the second floor.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Great site, thank you for that!

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

SLV, CONGRATS!
The water supply sounds excellent no matter how you get it out of the ground.
Converting/moving that building into a PERMANENT?? living space has many challenges.
I don't know the size of your family or your long term future plans and resources, so I'll offer this..
No large expenditures to convert/move the entire building BUT rather convert 1/2-2/3s of the structure into a comfortable functional living space and use the rest for storage of tools,equip,blg supplies,shop etc.
I didn't see any mention of driveway or access road development. Is there already something there decent enough to use during those winters?

Good luck with this homesteading adventure

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Google (UK version) also found:


http://www.stirling-tech.com/index.html
and
http://www.whispergen.com/index.cfm
and that's within

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Sorry SLV, this post is OT
Thanks for the info Argentos, I'm 40 miles from Athens Oh.
I've got to investigate this Sterling source. Thanks.
Once again SLV the best of luck with your project.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I think I'm closer to Athens, Greece than Athens, Ohio; and all I know about practical sterling engines has come from the Internet.

I do have a "toy" one which has been running for about 3 years on the small warmth from a stereo system on standby. Every male visitor is fascinated by its apparent lack of power input and the silence of the cycle.

IIRC there are manufacturers of working sterlings in Pakistan as well as the USA, mainly solar powered.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

THANKS! I'm checking on that ST engine. A while back I had thought about connecting a stirling engine to the wood stove to power a generator.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Congrats....will you be near Madison at all? That's where I live and would be glad to help out if you are nearby.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

$21,000 for a 12v. Not this time around, but if you had the cash it would be a neat idea. They were for the Trident sub. He has 13 tractor-trailer loads of unactivated batteries (acid never put in them). They are made by Exide.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I'll be north of La Crosse about 30 minutes. I appreciate the offer for help. I've others offer to help also. GIM is a great family!

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

a lot of the specs on this page are just wrong or misleading maybee not on
purpose but buyer beware

for example the claim of 7000 amps i think is meant to make it sound like amp
hours AH how most deep cycle batteries are rated this is way overated
probably imposible and i think is the cranking amps from the entire battery
bank when on the sub.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

"What would you do with those corn cribs? There are two standing plus 3 additional cement bases. There must be something practical..."

Store firewood in them. Get yourself a conveyer and load them from the top. Every other year pull from a different crib.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Good idea Victor... A good place to dry them and keep them off of the ground..

Heck, why not grow corn?

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Most excellent SLV. The best to you and your family.

--------------------------------------------------


Perspective

One day, the father of a very wealthy family took his son on a trip to the country with the express purpose of showing him how poor people live.

They spent a couple of days and nights on the farm of what would be considered a very poor family.

On their return from their trip, the father asked his son, 'How was the trip?'

'It was great, Dad.'

'Did you see how poor people live?' the father asked.

'Oh yeah,' said the son.

'So, tell me, what did you learn from the trip?' asked the father

The son answered:

'I saw that we have one dog and they had four.

We have a pool that reaches to the middle of our garden and they have a creek that has no end..

We have imported lanterns in our garden and they have the stars at night.

Our patio reaches to the front yard and they have the whole horizon.

We have a small piece of land to live on and they have fields that go beyond our sight.

We have servants who serve us, but they serve others.

We buy our food, but they grow theirs.

We have walls around our property to protect us, they have friends to protect them.'

The boy's father was speechless.

Then his son added, 'Thanks Dad for showing me how poor we are.'

Isn't perspective a wonderful thing?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

thanks conk for sharing that maybee you will like this bit
of "homesteader poetry"



Grant me,sweet christ,the grace to find-
son of the living god!-
A small hut in a lonesome spot
To make it my abode.

A little pool but very clear
To stand beside the place,
Where all mens sins are washed away
By sanctifying grace.

A pleasant woodland all about,
To shield it from the wind,
And make a home for singing birds
Before it and behind.

A southern aspect for the heat,
A stream along its foot,
A smooth green lawn with rich top soil
Propitous to all fruit.

And all I ask for houskeeping
I get and pay no fees;
Leeks from the garden,poultry,game,
Salmon and trout and bees.

My share of clothing and of food,
From the king of fairest face,
And I to sit at times alone
and pray in every place

Unknown author about 1300 years old

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

"We Will Become Silhouettes"

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Actually, they say that the 12v system (6 cells) will store 96k AH -- enough to run my house for 2 months if I ran it to zero. It has 600 pounds of lead and 200 pounds of copper according to the seller. It has to be filled with battery acid ("activated") after it arrives.

That is a great idea. I had also thought about framing out one of the concrete bases for a generator/battery room. Does anyone know if the batteries must be kept above a certain temperature?

The field will be garden for us, and alfalfa to winter our goats. I had thought about growing corn to fire a corn stove, but then I realized that it would take 300 bushels of corn (8 tons / 1.5 acre yield) to run the stove one year. Add in the electrical component of a corn stove and I threw the idea out the window.

Alfalfa will be good because it introduces nitrogen into the soil (good for rotating the garden around), and if properly tended can be harvested several years off one planting. In fact, goats don't mind weeds, so even if the field gets weedy I can still bale it for the goats.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Here's the response I received:

A wood stove would not provide sufficient heat or the high temperatures required to operate the ST-5. 525 � 650 deg. C temperatures are required. The burner that we will provide with these early engines burns particle (sawdust, pellets, etc.). We are looking into gasifiers that handle cord wood, but these systems are best suited to situating in outbuildings. The arrangement, maintenance requirements and energy balance are shown at www.stirling-tech.com under �literature� � Total Energy Independence.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
We are putting together a plan for batch production of ST-5s with burners. While it will be about 1 year before we can deliver (sooner depending on our response), our offering price for engine + particle fuel burner is $9,000 (US) plus shipping. Can I put you on my list of highly interested customers?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Best Regards,<o:p></o:p>
Craig

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

sorry did not see any amp hour ratings like that and that would be wrong anyway when you connect batteries in series such as you would to create a
12 volt battery from 2 volt cells the amp hours remains the same the voltage
increases and hence the watt hours/kilowatt hours.

that 7000 listed might be amp hours?who knows what fancy batteries the
gov has access to but if so roughly just judging size its 2 to 3 times
better weight for ah than the best deep cycle batteries available to public that i could find and i think they truely have the electric vehical problem
solved.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

My bad... I was thinking watt/hours.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

You can turn the metal barn into a comfortable space...it is a basic rectangular form, using the rectangle as the core, you could add a shed roof addition off the back (the simplest addition) to add a modern kitchen, bathroom, and utility room. The Early Texas vernacular structures were usually a rectangular that was added on to as the funds were available...I've worked on and seen some great designs from this basic form.

In hot climates, a wrap-a-round screened porch would be an inexpensive expanse of roofed space for an indoor/outdoor lifestyle...for a northern climate, the same design could be turned into a fully enclosed and insulated addition, wrapping the core for heat conservation and comfort...the central core could be kitchen/dining/living room with a fireplace or woodstove, and the bedrooms/bathrooms in the additions.

I moved a a metal barn using heavy duty platform dollies at the corners and bracing on the inside...it was only a short distance but I turned it 90' and set it on a concrete slab...all human power. I could of hooked a tractor to it and moved it further if I would of needed to (carefully and slow). I added on to it, wired it up, and fully insulated it and sheathed the inside with plywood and turned it into a comfortable wood shop...put in a window unit AC for summer and small electric heater for winter and it was good to go.

Using nice materials on the inside (wood, stone, plaster, tile, etc) could take a humble structure and make it a home (and keep the tax man from chingalaying you).

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

It is actually a wood framed building that was moved to that location from about a mile away (about 50 years ago). I'll keep the metal siding and roofing just cause I like it and it is low maintenance.

Interestingly enough, my inlaws' houses (theirs and the rental next door to them) were BOTH original grain barns of the same dimension (28'x16'). At first my FIL balked at my plan, but when I showed him that all the other homes on the road started with the same basic structure he actually thought it sounded like a good project.

This is going to be the key -- I haven't told my parents about my plans yet (at this point they would think I was crazy). If I can finish the inside off REAL nice (yet affordable) with bright colors, inviting windows/skylights, rustic use of barn wood, etc., then it will silence those who would otherwise scorn the idea. My MIL is still suspect of the whole thing. She doesn't think it is fair that I would drag my family into living like that. To be honest, they don't live much above that, but she likes having grid electricity, a "real" kitchen stove, and a back-up oil furnace. She also thinks it is too small for a family of 6 at just under 900 square feet. Fact is that the average new home in 1950 was a 2/1 1,100 square foot with 1 car garage -- and families were generally larger back then.

About the "man"... I'm half tempted to move the barn and finish it without telling anyone. But I have a feeling there are laws against living in something called a "barn" without a certificate of occupancy.

PS - Just got an e-mail from my FIL... he said that the local building code requires ALL new construction to have a garage. RIDICULOUS! What has this world come to. Are they looking out for the best interest of my 13 year old minivan?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Oh, and about the basement...

My FIL did some checking and determined that we could build our own block wall basement for about $2k including the floor. This is probably the route we'll take. He also said his brother has a backhoe we can use to dig the basement out. We'll only need to go about 4' down. Additionally he recommended that we just drive a point well ourselves since water is so shallow.

I'm going to check with the township regarding this garage requirement and see if it applies to moving an existing "house". I suppose it will matter if the county requires remodelling permits or new construction permits to convert a barn into a house.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Yep. I'm "REQUIRED" to build a garage. AAARRRRRGGGGHHH! Our country has become ridiculous.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Garage will cost more than the house...build a 'pole barn garage' with a corrugated roof and siding and turn it into a workshop? BTW, this is probably a county regulation...nothing to do with the rest of the country, but in general, things are getting more restrictive all the time. In my county, you used to be able to build without a permit, now you have to buy a $85 permit, but there are no residential building restrictions...but they have gotten everybody through septic and well permits.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I'm going to do the bare minimum, but I suppose it will have to be up to some "code" including garage door and minimum of 2 remote openers.

I'm planning on paying about $350-$500 for the permitting process in Wisconsin. Much better than the $35k-$40k permits for building on a residential lot in northern Colorado!

EDIT: On the back side there is a lean-to that has partially collapsed. I was planning on removing it. Maybe now I will have to restore it and bring it "up to code".

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

heck thats nothing...round here the new code is wanting to add fire sprinklers to residential....and other stupid crap...thank goodness we still have some countys around here that do not have or enforce the codes.....sometimes in very rural situations its better to build first ask forgiveness later....in that case its always good to take pictures of things inside of the walls IE electrical, plumbing


not saying to do that....just saying around here it happens alot..

and sometimes its been known to be "extensive maintenece" as personal home maintence does not require a permit around here

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

The shed roof off the rectangle is the simplest addition, and in your case it is existing.:ok: An angle I always try to use in dealing with government types is claiming the building to be 'historic'...that throws a wrench in all kinds of their hoop jumping because 'historic' buildings are exempt from all kinds of regulations. Some entities are pretty strict about what constitutes a historic structure, but some are not prepared for it and don't know how to handle it.

I bought an old boarded up 4 lane bowling alley and beer joint one time in a small town...I started working on it without getting any permissions and a couple of county guys paid me a visit. They told me I couldn't work on the building because it was in a floodplain and FEMA regulations prevented it. I told them it was a historic building and was exempt from FEMA reg...they scoffed at me and sent me a certified letter ordering to cease work. I was pretty much prepared for them and had my documentation in order...after a 3 hour meeting and them trying to back me down...I walked out of there with a 'variance'. I shared my information and what I did with the local historic organization and as a result many other people filed for exemptions to restore properties...it really brought up the area and I ended up selling the building for a large profit.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I've finished my drawings for the barn remodel. Just FWIW, and if you have any suggestions I'm open to hear them. I have thought through every aspect and angle as much as possible, but I might have missed something.

I'm looking into doing an ICF foundation (Insulated Concrete Form). I think I could do this for about the same cost as a block foundation, but it would be more water resistant and better insulated.

The lines through the middle of the first and second floors are exposed support beams (I haven't added the basement beams yet). I'm hoping to do something with rough-sawn wood that will look nice, but I don't want it to be too low -- the ceiling is only 7' to begin with.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Here are a couple "glass house views". The front door will face East (the roof plane with the skylights will face south).

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I'm wondering why you are going for electric heated hot water? Seems expensive to me compared to gas or solar or an on demand type gas unit. I'd think propane would be good there, but maybe the tank cost is excessive. If you had farm animals biogas production would be a possibility. Just thinking aloud...

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Your not kidding! I've been looking all over for one!!!!!! Can't find anything other than these 1900's rusted ones!!!!! grr.. Even steam engines are hard to come by. My gosh. My idea was that when you want to go off grid you'll need the renewable energy but also on demand power. Diesel generator won't work because you have to buy it (the fuel that is). Stirling engine would work best because you just make a fire and boom you've got power. From the looks of it, there is no shortage of fire wood in your area.

Now what I am looking into is a diesel generator that runs on alcohol (home brewed of course). Look into it.

I swear though if someone could make an off the shelf 3-5kw/h stirling engine they'd make a lot of money. I see a lot of people asking where to buy.

That and one of these:


Of course, it is one of those good ideas that you can't find anywhere. Have to make it yourself.

My take on it is that propane, natural gas are all fossil fuels and hence, subject to price spikes, shortages etc. With electricity you can make it with whatever source you want and you can make it yourself most importantly of all.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Like I said above.......forklift batteries.
The trojan L16 is the old standard for off grid power storage and still widely used anything less than these will be a waste of money. But forklift is the way to go. for a washing machine get an old tit-in the ringer model, you can't kill them with a hammer, they take a beating will save you a lot of power and are easy to fix if something goes wrong. We use a big fancy Bosh side loader now, it took years and lots of money.......but lots of money alone will get all the toys, it's just that it took me lot's of years to get the money LOL.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

for killer and slv maybee a wood gas generator is the way to go at least
at first as you can adapt it to any internal combustion engine.
and its old technology and simple to construct i heard even north korea is using it now for its trucks.
http://www.global-greenhouse-warming..._generator.pdf

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I don't know...you are taking a barn structure and then building an expensive basement and you will be left with very small and primitive house with 7' ceilings, it doesn't make sense to me. If I were to convert that barn, I would go with the cheapest foundation possible (and raise the wall height with a block footing) and just make it an insulated rustic shelter with a wood stove. All you have with that barn is some walls and roof framing, (insignificant expenses in the overall cost of building...especially when you have building codes you are forced to comply with).

If you are going to build an expensive basement, I would scrap that barn...it's a waste of money and effort.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I'm guessing the basement will be under $2,000 if I go with a block wall basement.

I did some detailed cost analysis, and it looks like the total cost of the house and land will come to about $40k with a paved driveway and cement pad under the lean-to. The land is $12,500 of this cost, so the house and driveway will be a total of $27,500. I don't think I could build from scratch for that price. Including the land we're talking about under $30 per square foot (with basement) and without the land $20 per square foot.

I did find out that cellulose insulation (spray in) should cost about $1,800, and the state of Wisconsin has a $2,000 "Energy Star" tax credit for cellulose!

Something else I should point out. Our goal is to live in as small a house as possible -- as primitive as possible, if you will. I know this is the opposite of most people's dream home, but it is ours. We want only enough room to meet the real needs of our family - no more. 7' ceilings shouldn't matter -- I seldom use that space between 7' and 8'.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

The Kitchen Queen wood cook stove will integrate with the hot water tank. In the Winter the electric will not be in use. During the Spring and Fall electricity will supplement on those days we don't burn wood, and in the summer it will only be electric.

In the future -- when we get off the grid -- I will install a solar water unit and tie it into the water heater. At that point we will no longer use the water heater to heat the water, but to store the heated water.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Word of caution: Exide batteries are about as crappy as they come.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I don't think you can dig the hole for the basement for $2000 (fuel, equipment rental, and operator...even if you manage to 'borrow' some of these cost, you will still 'owe' it, one way or another). If you go with block, you will still have the cost of the block (plus delivery), mortar, sand, cement, rebar, insulation, wood for forms, electrical, plumbing, labor and other expenses such as tools, bolts, layout costs, etc...not to be negative toward your plans, but I would guess your basement will cost $12,000 to $15,000 with you doing most of the work. If you go with insulated concrete forms, you are talking much more.

7' ceilings with make the space feel very confining and stuffy...and with the joist or beams exposed it will feel even more confining.

I would be careful about what kind of space you are going to put your family in...you could find yourself with a very unhappy wife (she may not even be conscious of why she is dissatisfied). Our built space can have big a impact on our well being...especially in a cold environment where you are inside most of the time.

I would get some advice from an architect before making a mistake that could have lasting consequences. Feel free to disregard my opinion, I'm not living your life.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

The $2,000 basement price was based upon some investigation my FIL did for me. My wife's family is in the house moving business, and they have also raised several houses to build basements under them. My FIL's brother has a back-hoe, and he has volunteered to do the excavation.

I think I can make the house feel bigger than it is through the use of windows, skylights, and the cathedral ceiling upstairs.

PS - I'm waiting for a quote from an ICF distributor (quote will include all aspecs such as rebar and concrete).

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Its been my experience we can pour walls in place less expensive than using ICF system using hourly labor cost the same for both trades.

of course your advantage would be that your labor would be free.

Be informed and aware that ICFs require a lot of external braceing to keep the walls square and plumb while pouring and dont forget to consider the braceing material costs (you probably reuse those 2by brace lumber for wall frameing in the house later) also dont forget the concrete pumping costs

you might also want to check what type of waterproofing system you can put on the outside of the ICF system...i dont think they will take a spray on system which might leave you having to use a more expensive membrane system.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

HMMMM, have a look at mother earth news site. way back they had an article on building a solar hot water heater. That would probably do pretty well in the warmer months and was very inexpensive to build.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

SLV,

Here's three books for you:

The "HAVE MORE" Plan
by Ed and Carolyn Robinson


Published in 1950's, they cover pretty much every normal need - no electronics as a subset though

Whatcha gonna do if the grid goes down?
by Susan Robinson


(not related to authors above) it's a Y2K book that's a good read

Living Well on Practically Nothing
by Edward H. Romney


it's a 'low cost/no cost' way to go - good read

I'm always looking for a less expensive way to do things

You have my sympathy regarding 'having' to build some kind of garage. But the reason I listed the books above is for a 'different' look at things. The first one is 50+ years old and gives you the 'old fashioned' way to go.

The Y2K book is more up to date.

The 'low cost/no cost' type of book has a different way to look at things.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

You might consider enclosing part of your overhang outfront for a mud room. You will definitely need one in Wisconsin for all the muck boots, winter coats, hats, gloves, etc. that will be used when everyone is out doing chores.

Your kitchen space is inadequate for doing any canning. You need counter space for working on and also a space for letting jars cool 24 hours after canning.

Do you plan on doing any milking of cows or goats? You would want a utility sink and a place to store milk buckets, totes, jars, etc. Also the utility sink would be useful for warming up cold baby animals that get chilled after birth.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Thanks for the tips. I'm planning on installing a stainless utility sink in place of the kitchen sink since that is also where we will do our laundry. Also, I will be installing open shelves above the table to the left of the sink as well as the chest refrigerator to the right. We will use the dining room table as an additional work space.

A mud room does make sense... I'll have to think about moving the side door toward the back of the lean-to and enclosing a portion of it.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

If I do solar hot water it will have to be drained seasonly due to the harsh winters. Most solar water systems I've seen require some sort of anti-freeze set up (when used for solar heat). I haven't seen a system specifically designed for solar hot tap water in a northern climate. I'll check out Mother Earth News.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I got back a couple quotes for ICF blocks. It looks like $2,000 for the forms + $1,500 for the concrete + 700 feet of rebar ($?). I think ICF is the way to go if we plan on inhabiting the basment... I'm just not convinced on that yet.

Also, I got a quote for a solar system. Here is what they recommended for me:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 484pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=644 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 55pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2076" width=73><COL style="WIDTH: 225pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 8533" width=300><COL style="WIDTH: 32pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1223" width=43><COL style="WIDTH: 92pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3470" width=122><COL style="WIDTH: 80pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3015" width=106><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl76 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 55pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" width=73 height=20>ITEM</TD><TD class=xl76 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 225pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" width=300>DESCRIPTION</TD><TD class=xl76 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 32pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" width=43>#</TD><TD class=xl76 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 92pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" width=122>PRICE</TD><TD class=xl76 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 80pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" width=106>TOTAL</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>MT120</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Mitsubishi 120 Watt Solar Modules</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="630"> $ 630.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2520" x:fmla="=SUM(C2*D2)"> $ 2,520.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>MR</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Top Of Pole Mount - 4X</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="525"> $ 525.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="525" x:fmla="=SUM(C3*D3)"> $ 525.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>MC</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">MC Quick Connects</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="18.25"> $ 18.25 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="146" x:fmla="=SUM(C4*D4)"> $ 146.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>PSSB</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Combiner Box</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="159"> $ 159.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="159" x:fmla="=SUM(C5*D5)"> $ 159.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>OBB</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">OutBack Breakers</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="18"> $ 18.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="72" x:fmla="=SUM(C6*D6)"> $ 72.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>L16</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> Deka L16 Batteries 350 Amps 6 Volts</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="225"> $ 225.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="900" x:fmla="=SUM(C7*D7)"> $ 900.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>TR1512</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Xantrex 1500 Watt Inverter</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="880"> $ 880.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="880" x:fmla="=SUM(C8*D8)"> $ 880.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>TRCB</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Conduit Box</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="250"> $ 250.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="250" x:fmla="=SUM(C9*D9)"> $ 250.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>DC175</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">DC Disconnect Box and Bonding Bar</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="400"> $ 400.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="400" x:fmla="=SUM(C10*D10)"> $ 400.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>C35</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Xantrex 35 Amp Charge Controller/Meter</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="218"> $ 218.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="218" x:fmla="=SUM(C11*D11)"> $ 218.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>DC60</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">60 Amp Breaker for Controller</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="39"> $ 39.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="78" x:fmla="=SUM(C12*D12)"> $ 78.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>BC #2/0</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Battery Cables</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="16"> $ 16.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="128" x:fmla="=SUM(C13*D13)"> $ 128.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20>IC#4/0</TD><TD class=xl64 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Inverter Cables</TD><TD class=xl65 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl67 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="150"> $ 150.00 </TD><TD class=xl68 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="150" x:fmla="=SUM(C14*D14)"> $ 150.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl66 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl70 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99">SUBTOTAL</TD><TD class=xl71 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" x:num="6426" x:fmla="=SUM(E2:E14)"> $ 6,426.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl66 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl72 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99">Tax Credit</TD><TD class=xl77 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" x:num="-1891.41" x:fmla="=SUM((E15+E17+E18)*-0.3)"> $ (1,891.41)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD class=xl69 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl66 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl72 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99">Freight Est</TD><TD class=xl77 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" x:num="200"> $ 200.00 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 17.25pt" height=23><TD class=xl69 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 17.25pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=23></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl66 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl72 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99">Discount 5%</TD><TD class=xl73 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" x:num="-321.3" x:fmla="=SUM(E15*-0.05)"> $ (321.30)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=20><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=20></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl66 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl74 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99">TOTAL</TD><TD class=xl75 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffcc99" x:num="4413.29" x:fmla="=SUM(E15:E18)"> $ 4,413.29 </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 16.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=22><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 16.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=3 height=22>BATTERY STORAGE: 600 Amphours @ 12 Volts.</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=2 height=20>INVERTER: 1500W 120V Output</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl63 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 15pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=5 height=20>BATTERY CHARGER: 5 stage with automatic AC transfer relay - 120A/24V</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Are these good components? Are the prices reasonable? Is the system adequate?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

About your garage- I'm sure the code doesn't require you to park your car in it. Build a good one- you will need it to store your animal feed, animal equipment and vet supplies, garden tools, shovels, chainsaw, water pails, etc. A self-sufficient life requires a lot of tools, so you'll want a safe place to keep them.

Do you know anyone who lives on a working homestead, self-sufficient small farm? It would be very helpful if you could visit a few and see what is needed in terms of work space and equipment. A house on a self-sufficient homestead is very different from a house in town.

Do you have your list of dream projects? Goats, chickens, gardening, canning, milking, cheesemaking, etc.? Whatever are the things you want to do on your dream homestead? Take each thing and make a list of the basic required equipment, for example if you will milk goats you will need a milk pail, tote, and filter. Canning requires a large canner, large kettle, jars, funnel, etc. Look at your list of basic equipment and figure out where you will put that. Maybe closing in your lean-to and using it for a mudroom and also shelves for storing large kettles, jars, etc. Maybe in your basement or garage.

These are issues we struggle with on our homestead. Every time we add a new project, more room is required. In the spring we have an extra table in the kitchen starting our vegetable seedlings. There are often chicks under the woodstove starting out, and maybe a baby goat or lamb brought in for warming. In the summer we put a plywood top on the woodstove and the canning jars are there cooling. My counter is full of herb tinctures. The extra table holds the ripening tomatoes and other piles of vegetables. Space is needed for fermenting crocks of kimchi, the wine that is fermenting, and the butter that is in process of being made. And on top of all of that, my family still expects regular meals!

Anyway, homesteading is an exciting adventure and I'm sure you will have a great time. Your kids will love having some animals. That area of Wisconsin is very beautiful, and there are lots of great apple orchards around. Have fun planning!

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Yes, I'd think you'd want it setup where you drain it about November when you start using the stove to heat, and refill it around late April when you are no longer using the stove to heat. I don't think there would be a big payback for an antifreeze type system when you have a stove that would do it essentially at no extra cost during the cold months anyway. Electric water heaters eat a lot of kwh and cost about $15 per month to run, so there is a good chance you could do it with a home built solar unit and get your payback the first year, and have free hot water in the warm months from then on.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

If you are interested, I found the articles.

In Oct 1980 they had a batch heater in an article titled "part 3 sun on tap pure and simple a sophisticated batch heater you can build for under $400" by frederic s langa.

There was also one about how to "recycle old refrigerators into low-cost solar water heaters" in a special edition guide to home energy put out in autumn 1980.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It...er-Heater.aspx

I guess the payback is more like 5 yrs on it, not 1, unless you are able to salvage materials free.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Just an update for everyone...

Two weeks ago I announced my resignation from my church. It was a difficult thing to do -- we are going to miss everyone so much. Our date for departure (from Colorado to Wisconsin) is set for Monday, 5/18.

The survey has been complete on the land. I'm just waiting for the filings with the county to be completed so we can pay for the land and file a Survivorship Deed on the property. Then it will be ours officially! That will be a great day.

We are still set on converting the barn into a house. I'd love to have the basement built and the barn fixed to the basement before this winter. It will take about $5,000 to get this done, and we are trying to raise that much before we make the move.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

BTW... I've tweaked my design. I'll be sure to update this thread with drawings of the final version once I'm ready to get the blueprints done up.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Great news SLV! Good luck to you and the family on the move.

Dave

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

i welcome you to wisconsin. it is a great place to live.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Thanks, Chad. We are returning home. Both of us were born in La Crosse, and our families still live on the Mississsippi River valley.

The only thing I really can't stand is their animosity towards firearms and the DNR thinking they can disarm any hunter on private property. I'm going to miss carrying concealed -- I'll feel vulnerable.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Good luck.:ok:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Are you physically/mentally strong enough for what you are about to take on?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Pardon my inquisitiveness.....around here gobermint agents or anyone dont come on private property without...permission..cause..warrent...and then they bring a caravan of law enforcement with them...round here only a fool would do that...now they will nail your arse to the wall once you get out on a public roadway

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

You'll save a buttload if you do humanure instead of septic. Makes great compost too. Google Humanure Handbook

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I can't find the article right now, but last year the DNR issued a press release stating that all of their wardens had the right to enter private property and demand that a hunter surrender their firearm to the warden (temporarily) without any sort of probable cause for poaching or warrant. The press release was to warn hunters that they must comply.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Yup. Been working toward this goal for several years.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Thought about it, but there aren't any convenient choices for toilets, etc. That and the cost is pretty high... throw in the maintenance and it was too much to bother with. Also, Wisconsin winters are far too cold.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Maybe you're thinking of a composting toilet? What I'm talking about is cheap and easy.

You gotta build your own toilet around a removable 5 gallon bucket, which is cheaper than buying a toilet. Layer of sawdust on the bottom, and more over every deposit. All you have to do is throw your crap outside on a pile of straw (natural bio-filter) when the bucket's full, and put some straw over it. Whole pile freezes in the winter, but starts composting again in the spring. Thermophilic composting is real hot so it'll get that sucker melting early in the year and keep it warm for a long time.

http://weblife.org/humanure/default.html

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Edit: Premature post. Looks like you've covered it already. end edit.

I think you should reconsider not having a basement. It's the cheapest living space you can get. It is a cool area for food and ammo storage. And you will need a storm shelter. I would consider a basement to be a neccesity. It's expensive, but I would find someplace else to cut first.

BTW. You will have to have a foundation anyway. That's like half the cost of a basement and you don't get any use out of it. Might as well increment up in cost and get some utility from your concrete.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

+1 Build part of it as a root cellar.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I dont know if they allow it in your area.....but here a small lagoon actually works better than a septic and laterals and is cheaper more maintenece free etc.

i have seen lagoons either direct piped or with a septic tank inline before the lagoon, it may be very preferable if you have a high water table etc

that 5gal composting toilet thing sounds a little to rustic and tree huggerish for my likeing ...lol...i do my best reading and thinking in the throneroom wouldnt want to interupt my creative wavelengths LOL

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

This idea is a little gross to me. I've read carnivore waste can bring disease to your plants. Don't crap where you eat.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Your taking on quite a project with limited funds.

There are other options.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NoRes...1%7C240%3A1308

I dont like critising other peoples dreams,but you are really going to have your hands full.

I do wish you the best of luck.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

100 Zillion Chinese do it all the time!

:thumb.aspx:

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Yes, we have decided to have a basement. We are going to build our own block walls. I guess it should cost around $2,000.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Alright. Here is the latest incarnation of my barn-house. I might make some final tweaking in the next couple months, but this seems to be a pretty solid plan. I'm still toying around with the plumbing and heating. The plumbing comes off the Kitchen Queen wood cookstove on the lefthand side, so I tried to position the water heater accordingly. I also left room for the stove pipe in the utility closet upstairs. I'm thinking right now that I will bring up an air duct vertically next to the hand rail on the second story. I'm thinking about moving air with a single stirling motor fan. I like the idea of no electricity involved in the heating process.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

DRAT! The company that made the stirling engine fans is out of business! Thermal Engines of Madison, AL, is not answering the phone and their website is down. I am completely bummed. I should have bought one when I could have.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Are you going to put the freezer in the basement?

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

In the basement picture there is an upright freezer in the bottom left of the picture. The chest freezer in the kitchen will be rigged with an external thermostat to regulate the temperature at 35 degrees or so. This will save 90% electricity versus a standard fridge.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Now I see it the freezer.

How about using hamsters on a wheel to power the fan! JK

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

It is possible that you would change your opinion after doing a little bit of research on the process of thermophilic composting. No disease or parasite can survive it. It's cheaper than septic and allows you to reclaim your nitrogen and put it back into your garden.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I'm planning on rotating crops with 50% legumes for nitrogen production.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

SLV - What software package are you using for your drawings/plans? The pics you're posting look VERY nice. They make it a lot easier to visualize things than just flat 2-D drawings.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Planting 100% legumes one year would add between 15 and 30 lbs/acre of N to your soil. Wheat requires 50, corn requires 90 and a lot of guys will even double that (imo, corn on 90 lbs N looks pathetic). You probably know this (and if you don't, Wisconsin has a great Extension service) but you will need to supplement with an organic solution (like alfalfa meal, fish meal, blood meal, urea, manure), or a chemical fertilizer. Just suggesting a way to keep your costs down... the average human pisses away enough N every year to grow the wheat he needs for the next year.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I knew there was a primal reason i like to urinate off the deck....now i just need to plant corn under the deck to make corn liqour .....and start a cycle

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

City people talking about farming,nothing funnier.

Spend the 40 bucks on fertilizer and grow what ever you want.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Chief Architect (v.10)

I'm going to be planting alfalfa on 50%, corn on 25%, and something else on the other 25% (oats, barley, etc.). I'm thinking I can harvest the alfalfa for several years before replanting. At that time I will rotate the 50% with the two 25% lots.

CANUCKFARMER, why are you so cynical? If you want to educate us, please do so by all means. If not, then find another thread to disrupt.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I don't see anywhere in you cost for the basement that you allowed for a footing for the block wall or for a concrete slab. Also missing are a sump pit and sump pump along with waterproofing the outside wall. With a water table as high as you have I would think these would be an absolute. I am not picking on your plan just bring up what I see as needed.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

SLV I am very much enjoying this thread and the updates on your progress. I'm sure there are many others like me who are working toward this same goal of homesteading and it is encouraging to see your work to make your dreams become reality.:applause_

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Me personally i would give up on the idea of "crops" but looking at the picture and description 5.5ac partially wooded really doesnt lend itself to growing crops

managing a field "crop" will require some equipment even on a small plot that you would have to borrow if your family has a tractor etc

But it would lend itself to a very large nice garden..

we dont mix "crops" with our food plots other than we will put in a couple of designated acres of sweet corn for the family when we are planting corn

I personally like to garden produce
Potatoes
cucumbers
tomatoes
onions
radishes
leaf lettuce
zucinni squash
Melons...all varieties
pumpkins

One of the best things we have done in my mind is plant and maintain fruit produceing trees ...in our area we can produce cherrys,peaches,apples, grapes on a fence line, Etc

Also we put in several acres back in, in walnut and pecan trees...for food and for cash crop wood lumber when they are fully mature...

Toss in a milk cow...a few slaughter animals...and canning from the garden and trees...you can feed yourself year round from the land

just some personal thoughts

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Rehabbing old barns into houses usually have surprises, budget surprises too!
I know, my Dad did it. Our old homestead was ONCE a dairy.

If the structure is good, you can go with it, but we never had a finished basement, dug it out, by hand. Only thing down there was the old octapus (that's what I called it) furnace, huge ole thing, and cement block walls, dirt floor.

Might be less expensive to just put up a manufactured house and work on the old barn at your leisure and time/money budget?

Or build a stick house without basement...use barn for storage and workplace, etc., again, fixing at your leisure?

Barns just have such surprises once you get going on them.
Your $25k budget just magically turns into a $50k budget.

How about a nice used doublewide/carport and work on old barn at your leisure and as time/money allow?

It just looks like you'd be better off starting from scratch, but just my opinion.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

You cannot get away with growing alfha,corn and oats of 5 acres of land.
It does not work that way.
Stick to vegetables on a smaller area then,fence the rest off and get a few sheep or goats.There are specialty breeds out there that could make you some money(wool,milk,cheese,they even sell sheeps manure in bags).

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

We've got a small herd of goats. We plan on ranging them in the woods because they love weeds, brush and leaves. That way it will be easier for me to pick up dead fall for cord wood. I still think alfalfa would be a good idea to winter our goats. We will also have chickens -- enough to sell the extra eggs.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Thanks for your tips. I also see that I left out drywall. LOL. I'll keep working on my list. I've revised it quite a bit from what I posted a while back. I'll have to post an updated cost estimate.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

I have experimented with this concept even though I was living in the city and it works quite well. I built a simple box around a 5 gallon pail, put a toilet lid on it and every time I needed to do my business went out to the garage. Surprisingly there was no odor, I thought there would be some. This is the method I will be using if I ever get around to my own homestead.

I will make it a bit fancier though and have thought about building it so the buckets could be changed from outside so I won't have to carry it through the house. Also I think the worries about food contamination are overblown especially if you don't have a ton of guests over. Pretty hard to infect yourself with your own feces.

I have also used diluted urine as a garden fertilizer and it works quite well.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

Have you researched using PEX instead of copper? Save yourself some money, and plenty of time. Check it out.

Re: Homesteading looms on the horizon
 

This sounds wonderful, SLV.

When you get to the point that you can consider upgrading from the wonder wash, Stabler makes a machine here in the US that we got which is aimed at off grid living but will hold big bedding items. It only uses 8 gallons of water and not much power either (and not much soap). It loads from the top, but operates like a front loader and does not chew up your clothes.

I know you have a lot of things in line in front of that... just wanted to share the info.

I'd go with turning one corncrib into a henhouse as suggested above.

And I'd try to have both solar and hand pump options on my water in case of a really bad solar storm.